The post Matt Rayment and “Dirt Church Radio:” New Beginnings for New Zealand’s Favorite Trail Podcast appeared first on iRunFar.

New Zealand’s Matt Rayment has many roles: father of three, husband, psychiatric nurse, runner, race director, and “one of those ‘Dirt Church Radio’ guys.” For the past six years, alongside his good mate Eugene Bingham, Rayment has been putting out a near-weekly trail running podcast called “Dirt Church Radio.”

With guests ranging from Kiwi runners doing extraordinary things locally, to high-profile international stars of the sport like Courtney Dauwalter, and to sport leaders such as iRunFar’s own Bryon Powell, the guests are as varied as the topics they discuss. And with Rayment and Bingham at the helm of the show, each episode feels like a group of friends getting together for a chat.

But after six years, change is in — or, instead, on — the air for the popular podcast.

While New Zealand is a relatively small country with an even smaller population, it has always punched above its weight in sports, including trail running. With the country’s population a mere 5.2 million, it’s produced some of trail running’s greats, including Jonathan Wyatt, Anna Frost, Scotty Hawker, Ruth Croft, and Daniel Jones. This crop of talent comes from a country where a significant portion of the population embraces sport as a way of life. It seems natural that a small running podcast that started at a kitchen table has grown into so much more.

What started as an idea between two friends on a weekly Sunday run commonly referred to as their “dirt church,” the podcast has become a staple of listening in the New Zealand trail running community — and beyond. Over the years, it has expanded to live shows, race coverage, a Substack newsletter, and more.

But after nearly six years and 300 episodes of co-hosting, Bingham decided to call it quits to focus on other parts of his life. His stepping away almost ended the podcast earlier this year, as Rayment was left to ponder: How does one continue with a podcast you’ve been doing with your friend weekly for more than half a decade? How do you make it different enough that it doesn’t feel like you’re just replacing a host? How do you do all that while maintaining the essence of what makes the show unique? Is it worth the effort?

It took a head injury during a trail race — and the subsequent recovery — for Rayment to realize how vital the podcast was to him and the New Zealand trail running community. And from there, there was no turning back.

Rayment’s Running Origins

Rayment wasn’t always a runner. He was first a musician who didn’t really partake in many sports growing up, but then he became a mountain biker and moved from the city to Rotorua, a mountain biking hot spot. But with a move back to Auckland, the country’s capital and largest city, on the horizon, he realized that he wouldn’t be able to get the same amount of time riding on the trails that he used to, and he knew he had to stay active. He’d lived the sedentary life before and wasn’t about to return to it.

So, he started running.

First, it was just down to the end of his gravel driveway and back, and then twice there and back, and slowly, over time, he built up running fitness in preparation for his move back to the city. Once in Auckland, he adopted the nearest trail system, Riverhead Forest, northwest of the city, as his playground.

Of the area, he says, “It’s not a running destination. It doesn’t have the biggest peaks or the nicest views, but it has good trails, from doubletrack to technical singletrack.” His love and appreciation of the area are apparent when describing the trails.

He quickly started running with a group on Sundays. One of the group’s members would say, “Well, I’m off to dirt church today,” giving the group its name. Eugene Bingham was in that group of runners.

During this period, Rayment was editor of the “Kiwi Trail Runner” publication and worked full-time as a psychiatric nurse. Both jobs required the ability to connect with people to help them tell their stories, something Rayment enjoyed doing.

Start of “Dirt Church Radio”

Bingham was the one who originally suggested starting a podcast. The pair were out on a run when he asked Rayment, “What would you do if you didn’t have ‘Kiwi Trail Runner’ anymore?” This statement was soon followed by suggesting they start a podcast together. Bingham, an accomplished writer whose work spans everything from smaller regional publications to the “New Zealand Herald” national publication, also had a knack for telling stories — and helping others tell theirs.

They had no grand ambitions with their fledgling podcast. They recorded a quick pilot and invited their friend Paul Charteris, the founder of the Tarawera Ultramarathon, a fixture in the New Zealand trail world, to be their first guest. That was in July of 2018. “It was the three of us around the kitchen table recording,” says Rayment of the low-key affair of which he had no expectations besides having a good time with his friends.

Next up was Kiwi Fiona Hayvice, who has made her mark in the running world specializing in multiday races, like backyard ultras. Then there was Kiwi Grant Guise, who has finished the Hardrock 100 twice and also done well at the Tarawera 100 Mile.

Their first international guest was American Dean Karnazes, who appeared on their seventh episode, Jeff Browning chatted with them three episodes later, then Lucy Bartholomew on episode 14, Scotty Hawker on episode 15, Dylan Bowman on 17, Ruth Croft on 21, Courtney Dauwalter on 24, and Anna Frost on 25.

And that was all within the first six months. Rayment laughs at their star-studded lineup of guests on the show, “We had a pretty good run early on of people.” He goes on to say, “We were good at cold-calling people and asking if they wanted to be on our podcast.” Maybe it was their accents or the depth of the conversation that made this podcast different, but people were saying yes.

For two guys recording at their kitchen table, they were quickly creating something well beyond expectations. But this is, after all, the Kiwi way of doing things.

“Dirt Church Radio” Grows

The podcast’s popularity grew quickly, especially in New Zealand, a country filled with runners ready to listen to a good yarn, and Rayment and Bingham had a knack for finding good stories. While they never had a clear vision of where to take the podcast, it seems their talent was talking about the tangents rather than the main storylines.

They interviewed Kathrine Switzer, the first woman to run the Boston Marathon, and took a deep dive into what it was like to be accosted by the race officials in the middle of the race. Rayment mentions the interview as one of his most memorable, saying, “[She had] an experience that, as a man, I’d never have to worry about.”

As the podcast grew, so did the pair’s ambitions of what it could turn into. While they’d traveled to the Tarawera 100 Mile, the biggest 100-mile event in the country, to record, they dreamed of traveling internationally to do their show, with eyes on races like Western States 100 and UTMB.

But then the COVID-19 pandemic happened, the world shut down, and dreams of traveling internationally were quickly put on the back burner as New Zealand’s borders closed and required an extensive quarantine to travel. “Dirt Church Radio” shifted its focus from the world stage to New Zealand and Australian runners, and from elites to normal people doing extraordinary things.

They’ve had Malcolm Law, a Kiwi fundraiser, race organizer, and founder of a community-driven directory of trails in the country called “Wild Things;” Kerry Suter and Ali Pottinger, who operate the training platform Squadrun have been guests; the founder of the Tarawera 100 Mile has featured prominently; and elite runner and Kiwi Nancy Jiang has chatted with the pair on several occasions.

Whether the pair are talking to a superstar in the sport, someone considered world-famous in New Zealand, or someone with a good story, the one constant is that the listener gets to feel like they are listening to a set of friends spin a yarn while sitting together and having a good time.

The pair has recorded in a variety of locations — indoors, outdoors, on the side of a lake in the middle of the night — a recording Rayment notes was one of his favorites. While they lack the professional studio or recording equipment of other popular podcasts, it has never inhibited their ability to tell a story, relate to their guests, or connect with their audience.

Changes of Course, Changes of Heart

In June 2024, Bingham asked Rayment to chat at a cafe. Bingham said then that, for various reasons, he felt that it was time for him to move on from “Dirt Church Radio” to pursue other aspects of his life.

Rayment was devastated. He says, “It felt like I was being broken up with.” After six years of doing the podcast together, Rayment couldn’t fathom doing it without his friend. He decided that if Bingham was out, he wasn’t going to keep on going with the podcast.

He said on a later podcast, “I felt too old to start again.” It just wouldn’t be the same. But Rayment understood where his friend was coming from and was accepting, saying, “Just because you understand someone’s decision doesn’t mean you have to like it.”

Then, in July 2024, Rayment lined up to race the WUU2K, a 45-kilometer race outside of Wellington. Partway through the run, Rayment fell hard, hitting his head on the ground. Getting up, he was determined to finish the race. He admits it was part ego, of not wanting to be the “Dirt Church Radio” guy who didn’t finish the race, that kept him going to the finish line. It wasn’t until he returned to work the following week that he would have to admit that he’d given himself a concussion and was struggling with basic tasks involving memory.

It was a four-month recovery period from the crash, giving Rayment ample time to reflect on the things in life that were important to him. Yes, his work, family, and everything else he was working on, but also “Dirt Church Radio.” He realized how much the podcast, and the community built up around it, meant to him. With this new clarity, Rayment decided the podcast needed to live on for himself and the New Zealand trail running world.

Like with his refusal to quit the WUU2K, he says he “didn’t want to be the ‘Dirt Church Radio’ guy who didn’t finish ‘Dirt Church Radio.’”

New Hosts, New Views

Rayment knew he didn’t want to carry the podcast alone and needed to find a new co-host, or maybe two. He wanted something different enough that it didn’t feel like he was just replacing Bingham. “It wasn’t going to be the same as before because it wasn’t going to be Eugene,” but a big change-up would ensure a new heading for the podcast.

Rayment called up two folks who’d been involved with the show for a long time, Andrew McDowall and Ali Pottinger, to see if they were interested in hosting with him.

McDowall had been a friend of the podcast from the beginning. A sound engineer, he’d called up Rayment and Bingham after their first episode and told them, “Your sound sucks.” He’s been in the periphery ever since, doing music for the show and being a guest several times surrounding his run at the 2024 Western States 100.

Rayment also called up Ali Pottinger. Pottinger and her partner Kerry Suter had founded the coaching company Squadrun. They met Rayment and Bingham in 2020 when they were all at Tarawera, and they all quickly became friends. Pottinger and Suter began taking up the microphone at the event to help announce the event’s finish line and naturally fit into the podcast’s banter. Pottinger and Suter continued to stay involved with the podcast over the next several years, offering insights into the race scene and training.

Pottinger and McDowall seemed like a perfect fit, turning what was originally a two-person podcast into a three-person one and bringing in outside perspectives. Rayment says that he was lucky when “I called them up and they were both keen,” and is also quick to note of the addition of Pottinger, “Ali brings a woman’s voice, which is so important.”

The Future

Kiwis have a saying that something can be world-famous in New Zealand, a somewhat self-deprecating nod to the fact that they are on a small island in the middle of the ocean with not all that many people living there. However, that small island has not only produced some of the best trail running athletes in the world but also created a tight-knit trail running community, and “Dirt Church Radio” has played a significant part in bringing people together. While Rayment is still recording in a small space between his bed and his closet, there’s a sense that the podcast is destined for greater heights.

With the first episode with Pottinger and McDowall released in early November 2024, Rayment doesn’t know where the podcast will go or how it will evolve. He speaks of rekindling the original dreams of recording from Olympic Valley, California, during the Western States 100 or Chamonix, France, during UTMB.

For now, “Dirt Church Radio” continues, providing a platform for people to share their stories. Rayment says of podcasting, “When you start these conversations with people, you’re standing at a threshold, and you don’t know how it’s going to go.” He gets to make a connection with his guests on the show, one that he values.

Significant life changes are never easy for anyone, but Rayment seems committed to continuing with the podcast, saying, “’Dirt Church Radio’ has become part of my identity.” And while he acknowledges that maybe it’s not the best idea to have your work wrapped up in your self-view, he says, “I think it’s in a healthy way.”

If “Dirt Church Radio” has become part of Rayment’s identity, it’s also fair to say that it has become part of the New Zealand trail running community’s identity as well. And it seems like both are better off because of it.

Call for Comments

• Are you a fan of “Dirt Church Radio?” What’s been your favorite episode?
• What other trail running podcasts do you love?

Matt Rayment and “Dirt Church Radio:” New Beginnings for New Zealand’s Favorite Trail Podcast by Eszter Horanyi.